[movie] Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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Comments

  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I have to say that I understand where a lot of TLJ gripes are coming from, even if I don't agree with many of them, but the Luke thing is incomprehensible to me. He has a very strong arc in the movie, and that gives Hamill a chance to pull out acting moves we've never seen before from him.
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member edited January 17
    "That a big Hollywood studio would take such risks on such a big property — again, to present their central hero in a drastically different light than ever before, to unflinchingly deliver the ominous message that even the most pure-hearted idealists can struggle through darkness and doubt — these are not the kinds of decisions that get made when short-term profitability is prioritized above all else. " -
    -Joseph Gordon-Levitt

    I like the prefaces that Joseph makes, and his interpretation. In no way is anyone who loved / hated the film wrong in their feelings. One of my friends who hated it was forced to see it a second time (for his daughter) and much like JarJar, he said the "bad" stuff faded because he knew it was there and still enjoyed the film for what it was.

    Personally, I don't see it quite as daring ...
    There is no risk in destroying Luke though - he's not a property with a future, and the previous movie had already shifted focus to the "new hopes". We all knew this was an exit (whether he's relegated to a swamp-dwelling master, he'd likely never be a central figure again).

    In fact, I predicted, hours before my viewing (second show release in my city) of Luke's events at the end of the movie. I pulled it right after the movie (from IG @keepreaching and my FB account) as instead of it being a joke, some might read it as an actual spoiler.

    Chat conversation with my buddy who is a massive SW fan

    To me, it would seem a person who cuts himself off from the force, the Jedi, whatever, would dwell in it's temple with the last remnants, and develop new and interesting Jedi force powers seems contradictory. This is where the storytelling failed me - the gaping inconsistency where "our hero" (rolls eyes) is out of the magic game for so many years, and yet comes up with new spells and new uses not heard of across the entire history of force users.

    They can (and did) do it - I just don't think they did this part well. :)

    :)
  • uxFOOL
    uxFOOL
    GT Manager
    Purge wrote: »
    To me, it would seem a person who cuts himself off from the force, the Jedi, whatever, would dwell in it's temple with the last remnants, and develop new and interesting Jedi force powers seems contradictory. This is where the storytelling failed me - the gaping inconsistency where "our hero" (rolls eyes) is out of the magic game for so many years, and yet comes up with new spells and new uses not heard of across the entire history of force users.

    They can (and did) do it - I just don't think they did this part well. :)
    That take is rife with assumptions, though. For one thing, you are excluding the years before he went into seclusion, which at minimum is something like 15-20 years given Ben Solo's age. Also, your window into what force abilities exists is very narrowly defined by what we've seen before, and doesn't take into account that he's had access to the ancients texts of the Jedi order for some indeterminate amount of time. Why would you assume that ONLY the abilities from the first two trilogies are what is available? Hell, Palpatine spoke of super-powerful dark side abilities that his master (Plageous) had,
    but were never explicitly exhibited in the films. That alone hints at the possibilities beyond what we've seen to date.

    Mike Dunn
    Executive Producer & Editor-at-Large
    GAMING TREND

  • Rumpy
    Rumpy
    GT Member
    Yeah, agreed. That's a good take. Case in point, I thought they did a really good job. It's been what, 30 years since ROTJ? At some point, it was all speculation about whether we'd ever get Episodes 7-8-9, while there sure were a lot of rumours floating around, and we certainly hadn't expected getting prequels, but we did. Meanwhile, the EU set in, building up expectations. Were those expectations dashed? Well, I knew the moment we were getting the prequels that they probably couldn't account for events in the EU, and sure enough they went their own way with the Clone Wars. But I was actually pretty impressed at how heavily TLJ drew from the EU. But 30 years is a long time, and I think it's fair to think that whatever he's done since we last saw him would have changed him. As a character he's certainly grown, even if it isn't in a way that fans expected. He's no longer a whiny farmboy ;) FWIW, I found his character arc in this movie fairly touching, and felt he went out better than Han did.

    The things he's had to deal with in this movie, of course it's going to affect him and change him. If it didn't, those same people would cry foul that he hadn't had any character growth. And then there are those who've wanted to see him grapple with the dark side. Well....!

    I've heard that there's a petition going around to get it stricken from canon, which is ridiculous.
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    uxFOOL wrote: »
    Purge wrote: »
    To me, it would seem a person who cuts himself off from the force, the Jedi, whatever, would dwell in it's temple with the last remnants, and develop new and interesting Jedi force powers seems contradictory. This is where the storytelling failed me - the gaping inconsistency where "our hero" (rolls eyes) is out of the magic game for so many years, and yet comes up with new spells and new uses not heard of across the entire history of force users.

    They can (and did) do it - I just don't think they did this part well. :)
    That take is rife with assumptions, though. For one thing, you are excluding the years before he went into seclusion, which at minimum is something like 15-20 years given Ben Solo's age. Also, your window into what force abilities exists is very narrowly defined by what we've seen before, and doesn't take into account that he's had access to the ancients texts of the Jedi order for some indeterminate amount of time. Why would you assume that ONLY the abilities from the first two trilogies are what is available? Hell, Palpatine spoke of super-powerful dark side abilities that his master (Plageous) had,
    but were never explicitly exhibited in the films. That alone hints at the possibilities beyond what we've seen to date.

    I don't disagree (or had even discounted) those possibilities - I don't find them impossible at all.

    Thing is, the storytelling is what I found lacking.
    Going all the way back to KOTOR those weren't really things that were prevalent, and the use of those abilities seems like something the Jedi would have been researching CONSTANTLY to allow for inter-galaxy communication, projection etc.. without reliance on technology. How both Luke and Snoke were able to do this- and for both Rey and Ben to be ignorant of it (I got the impression he was just as surprised as Rey in the reveal).

    We never get to see a moment with Luke at his prime, or how the projection of death and destruction while seeing his nephew had driven him to the edge of murder - it simply happened and assumes the audience will draw that for them - and in a case where Luke has a significant following and attachment there was more connective tissue required as it is (obviously) a hard sell.

    It's the same as showing perhaps infighting and bickering could have stalled the rebellions' attempts to reinstate a functional governance which would have allowed Snoke to fill the vacuum.

  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    So, you're mad that the movie didn't bother to film Mark Hamill 15 years ago to show Luke in his prime? Also, that we had to extrapolate what has happened to him, but you're happy to extrapolate what is known and has been done with the Force research during the time that few Jedi that existed were in hiding?
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    It's funny for me because I was never a big fan of Luke to begin with. I found him incessantly whiny and jealous in the first movie, and kind of arrogant and annoying (and still whiny) in the latter ones. For me, this was Mark Hamill's best performance in the series and the most interesting Luke has ever been as a character. In many ways his behavior echoed his own heroes; he's essentially behaving much like Obi Wan and Yoda, who both became judgmental and leery/weary over time. The early scenes where Rey is seeking his tutelage completely remind me of the Luke/Yoda dynamic. So many elements of TLJ felt like an homage to Empire to me, so it's really difficult for me to appreciate the negativity.

    Anyway, it's as Bull said, perspective is everything. I suspect Luke fans and those who have watched all the cartoons and read the books, played all the games, etc have such a deeply ingrained impression of Luke and how he should behave that this movie just went too far astray. For people like me that are primarily just fans of the movies, it worked really well and his story arc fit perfectly into the series (and hopefully will have additional resolution in part 9).
  • Rumpy
    Rumpy
    GT Member edited January 18
    Purge wrote: »
    Thing is, the storytelling is what I found lacking.

    That's a thing I find at issue with this new trilogy overall and is not a specific TLJ issue. . The storytelling seems to assume too much of the audience. And strangely, unlike the OT, despite the advances in technology this version of the universe feels strangely empty.
    rittchard wrote: »
    For me, this was Mark Hamill's best performance in the series and the most interesting Luke has ever been as a character.

    Yes, I found the same thing as well. He gave the character more depth, more poignancy. There was more to it than simple black & white.
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member edited January 18
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    So, you're mad that the movie didn't bother to film Mark Hamill 15 years ago to show Luke in his prime? Also, that we had to extrapolate what has happened to him, but you're happy to extrapolate what is known and has been done with the Force research during the time that few Jedi that existed were in hiding?

    First, I'm not mad -don't take the "internet rage" issues you might have out on me.

    Go back through my comments - I consistently indicate I enjoyed it, but there were things that bothered me about the treatment.

    So perhaps take a step back and consider that before reading even my LAST comments.

    "we have to extrapolate" - if you a play a game where (I'm thinking of FFVIII or IX, here ) where you supremely dominate a boss fight where you're entirely untouched, and it cuts to a premade cutscene where you're on the ropes? (end of disk 1, some ice queen) - it breaks the narrative. With a game you, as the viewer to make the reasoning excuse that "Well, it's not reasonable to contain a bunch of cutscenes based on the gamer's level of success in this one fight".

    We're two layers into that already in a media format which does NOT have that same pitfall - they control the narrative.

    First Layer: ROTJ ended on a high note. Regardless of whether the Republic is reinstated, both Sith lord and apprentice were dead, and perhaps a shift in Empire politics from despotism would fall that was pinned by Vader and his master. There was room for a positive outcome.

    Second Layer: Yes, Coruscant and several other "rebel planets" were destroyed by Starkiller Base, but the focus was still on the victory of the rebels in stopping this death machine from holding the galaxy hostage - and the positioning was NOT that the First Order was already in a position of supreme power (unlike the Empire). There were also a LOT of First order on a planet that basically went nova. It's not unreasonable to assume the First Order could wrest control, but we go to "here's your <100 people left" in the same footstep that has Rey finding Luke (they share this moment in both films).

    As for extrapolating Jedi force powers:
    there is no reason given within the narrative to suggest Luke had these powers before the Ben/Luke moment. Nothing to show his own growth - only his own hubris through his words of remorse (which was fantastic and convincing).

    The idea that he's cut himself off completely from the force and the Jedi, only to come up with some of the most powerful uses for the force asks too much of me to draw that conclusion. So it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Not because it couldn't happen, but that just seemed too inconsistent.

    But maybe that's too much of a stretch for you to even SEE the gap.

    I must just be an angry SW bandwagoner. ;)

  • uxFOOL
    uxFOOL
    GT Manager edited January 18
    Purge wrote: »

    As for extrapolating Jedi force powers:
    there is no reason given within the narrative to suggest Luke had these powers before the Ben/Luke moment. Nothing to show his own growth - only his own hubris through his words of remorse (which was fantastic and convincing).

    The idea that he's cut himself off completely from the force and the Jedi, only to come up with some of the most powerful uses for the force asks too much of me to draw that conclusion. So it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Not because it couldn't happen, but that just seemed too inconsistent.

    But maybe that's too much of a stretch for you to even SEE the gap.

    I must just be an angry SW bandwagoner. ;)
    But there's no reason to think he didn't, either. There's plenty of reason to think he studied the Jedi ways for YEARS, though, with direct physical evidence being the fact that he found a long lost Jedi enclave and several ancient texts. What do you think was in those books, Bantha recipes?

    And for the record, the way you craft your responses really comes off as angry and outraged, that's why people are responding to you as such.

    Mike Dunn
    Executive Producer & Editor-at-Large
    GAMING TREND

  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    uxFOOL wrote: »
    Purge wrote: »

    As for extrapolating Jedi force powers:
    there is no reason given within the narrative to suggest Luke had these powers before the Ben/Luke moment. Nothing to show his own growth - only his own hubris through his words of remorse (which was fantastic and convincing).

    The idea that he's cut himself off completely from the force and the Jedi, only to come up with some of the most powerful uses for the force asks too much of me to draw that conclusion. So it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Not because it couldn't happen, but that just seemed too inconsistent.

    But maybe that's too much of a stretch for you to even SEE the gap.

    I must just be an angry SW bandwagoner. ;)
    But there's no reason to think he didn't, either. There's plenty of reason to think he studied the Jedi ways for YEARS, though, with direct physical evidence being the fact that he found a long lost Jedi enclave and several ancient texts. What do you think was in those books, Bantha recipes?

    And for the record, the way you craft your responses really comes off as angry and outraged, that's why people are responding to you as such.

    Are you the keeper of record? ;) Prior responses have been in a defensive tone (saying "you" "hell" etc..) I'm not case-building here, but I feel the tone you're reading is coming from what you're projecting.

    My last responses have been pretty clear, and I've also put caveats throughout - something that has not been reciprocated. <shrug>

    @rittchard, I completely appreciate the acting Hamill put in. In prior movies he was petulant and the reluctant hero. He was often referred to as a whiner by public parodies (Thumb Wars springs to mind) and a decade+ of sulking would not be out of character for one like him.
  • TheEgoWhip
    TheEgoWhip
    GT Member
    I like the ongoing conversation about the film. All sides have merit, and the review from Joseph Gordon-Levitt is a good read.

    I really enjoyed this movie. I liked it more the 2nd time I watched it, mainly I think, because I was able to let go of everything I was hoping would happen, and allow myself to enjoy the story that they wanted to tell. The only concern I really have moving forward is the overall Disneyfication of the Force, as a whole. Rian Johnson has stated in interviews that the entire purpose of making Rey's parentage unimportant was to show that everyone could have special force powers, and that they weren't tied to some lineage or birthright. I guess that could have been implied previously by the mandate that Jedi have no children, thus Force power is not a hereditory thing, but I still hate feeling like they are changing the underlying message to "everyone is special, especially the poor and disenfranchised" Rey's parents were nobodies, the stable boy on the casino planet is the loewst of the low. The Force is the great equalizer. Its like spiritual welfare for the SW galaxy. It reminded me of the old Star Wars Galaxies mmo. I used to love that game. It had alot of depth, and a crafting system lightyears ahead of its time. ;) And then they tweaked it, to allow more Jedi. In fact, they let everyone create a Jedi character. Towns ewre suddenly full of lightsabres, and all powerful toons. No more hiding from bounty hunters, no more concealing your Force powers. Everyine wins! and the game fell apart, and a few months later I stpoped playing, along with almost everyone else. I just want the Star Wars movies to remain special. I was ok with the Jedi being some all powerfull, mystical group. I didn't need to think that if my life was miserable enough, that I could have been special in this imaginary way. <rant off>
  • uxFOOL
    uxFOOL
    GT Manager
    TheEgoWhip wrote: »
    I like the ongoing conversation about the film. All sides have merit, and the review from Joseph Gordon-Levitt is a good read.

    I really enjoyed this movie. I liked it more the 2nd time I watched it, mainly I think, because I was able to let go of everything I was hoping would happen, and allow myself to enjoy the story that they wanted to tell. The only concern I really have moving forward is the overall Disneyfication of the Force, as a whole. Rian Johnson has stated in interviews that the entire purpose of making Rey's parentage unimportant was to show that everyone could have special force powers, and that they weren't tied to some lineage or birthright. I guess that could have been implied previously by the mandate that Jedi have no children, thus Force power is not a hereditory thing, but I still hate feeling like they are changing the underlying message to "everyone is special, especially the poor and disenfranchised" Rey's parents were nobodies, the stable boy on the casino planet is the loewst of the low. The Force is the great equalizer. Its like spiritual welfare for the SW galaxy. It reminded me of the old Star Wars Galaxies mmo. I used to love that game. It had alot of depth, and a crafting system lightyears ahead of its time. ;) And then they tweaked it, to allow more Jedi. In fact, they let everyone create a Jedi character. Towns ewre suddenly full of lightsabres, and all powerful toons. No more hiding from bounty hunters, no more concealing your Force powers. Everyine wins! and the game fell apart, and a few months later I stpoped playing, along with almost everyone else. I just want the Star Wars movies to remain special. I was ok with the Jedi being some all powerfull, mystical group. I didn't need to think that if my life was miserable enough, that I could have been special in this imaginary way. <rant off>

    I'm just not sure the SWG analogy fits, though. As of Last Jedi, you can count the amount of force users on one hand, where once there were a MUCH larger amount in the days of the Republic before the Empire took over. By opening that up to non-descendents of the previous movies it shows that these AREN'T the last force users, and the potential exists for more. Rey and a little kid having force abilities doesn't really equate to "Disneyfication", Finn Rose, Poe and a bunch of nobodies would, though, and that didn't happen. It's still an exclusive club, it's just not one restricted to a handful of people anymore.

    Mike Dunn
    Executive Producer & Editor-at-Large
    GAMING TREND

  • TheEgoWhip
    TheEgoWhip
    GT Member
    uxFOOL wrote: »

    I'm just not sure the SWG analogy fits, though. As of Last Jedi, you can count the amount of force users on one hand, where once there were a MUCH larger amount in the days of the Republic before the Empire took over. By opening that up to non-descendents of the previous movies it shows that these AREN'T the last force users, and the potential exists for more. Rey and a little kid having force abilities doesn't really equate to "Disneyfication", Finn Rose, Poe and a bunch of nobodies would, though, and that didn't happen. It's still an exclusive club, it's just not one restricted to a handful of people anymore.

    The SWG reference was mainly just something that I felt was altered to try and appease the masses, that ultimately destroyed what made it popular in the first place.

    Yes, there were many more Jedi before the rise of the Empire. It's a big galaxy, I get that. My fear is that they will somehow tie the rising/awakened Force to the idea that it lends it's powers to the "poor and downtrodden" in an disproportionate way. I don't need th SW series to become a tool for social justice. I prefer it to be an escape from the world.

    Luke was just a simple moisture farmer, trying to buy power converters, but he was unknowingly tied to a wider story by his lineage. I'm just waiting for the next batch of Jedi to come from the same "diverse" cast of social archtypes that Disney uses to create all the rest of thier heros. Jedi could come from anywhere. The poor streets of Agrabah, the Ice harvesters of Arendelle, any number of orphans and dire circumstance, a puppet made of wood that's come to life...
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Is this really a different concept though (Jedi coming from anywhere)? In the first trilogy it seemed like anyone could be a Jedi, or am I remembering wrong? Wasn't there Samuel L Jackson, Obi Wan, Yoda and a bunch of weird action figures that were all Jedi from every race all across the galaxy? Whether they are poor/downtrodden may be beside the point...

    Of course JJ could always reverse it and say Kylo was talking out of his ass, and the broom boy is actually his illegitimate son that he didn't know about when he was off (screen) doing it with poor chicks across the galaxy.

    Semi Off-topic, but oh the nostalgia of the SWG MMORPG.... hotpants, dusters, and the best dancing ever in any game lol
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member edited January 18
    Lol, better dancing than in the Star Wars Kinect game? Blasphemy!
  • TheEgoWhip
    TheEgoWhip
    GT Member
    rittchard wrote: »
    Is this really a different concept though (Jedi coming from anywhere)? In the first trilogy it seemed like anyone could be a Jedi, or am I remembering wrong? Wasn't there Samuel L Jackson, Obi Wan, Yoda and a bunch of weird action figures that were all Jedi from every race all across the galaxy? Whether they are poor/downtrodden may be beside the point...
    Yes, originally, the Jedi order did have a wide array of types, races, genders and even classes. Dooku was a nobleman, Yoda actually WAS a puppet. etc... I am totally ok with this, in fact, that would be ideal for me. A representative cross section of the general population of a galaxy. My fear is that going forward, Jedi will primarily come from only one part of that population. A part that isn't based on race or gender, but purely on class.

    I may be totally out of line and I may have completely misinterpreted what the director meant when he seemed (to me anyways) to focus on social class in his movie. Maybe the 40 minutes of story time that Finn and Rose spent, not advancing the central plot in any way, had no ulterior motive in focusing on the repressed, poor people of Canto Bite other than to fill time. Since this was the longest run time of any SW movie, and this sequence seems to literally serve no other plot point othre than to keep Finn in the story somehow, and yet totally out of the way, I can't imagine that it was accidentally left in the final cut of the film. That and the other interviews with the director where he says he had to fight to keep the "Broom boy" ending in the final cut of the movie because that was a central point in what he was trying to show.

    I am probably wrong, but Joseph Gordon-Levitt says that my opinions matter. :)
  • uxFOOL
    uxFOOL
    GT Manager
    I'll say this- the Canto Blight stuff was the most prequel-ish part of the film, and I think a lot of that is due to the attempted social commentary aspect of it (I and II both had hamfisted ideas about social class and politics). That said, I feel like making Broom Boy force sensitive hammers home the whole potential for anybody regardless of class, age, race, etc. to exhibit these abilities. The whole 'everyman' concept

    Mike Dunn
    Executive Producer & Editor-at-Large
    GAMING TREND

  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    I agree it would be totally lame to have force sensitive tied to class, but I don't think that was the point of showing broom boy. I think they just wanted to drive home the point there was still hope remaining for everyone in the galaxy, and simply establish that with a character we had already seen who just happened to be living in poor conditions. Plus he was a cute kid and it made for a great visual (as opposed to seeing some rich alien summon his gold goblet or whatever lol).
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    Darth Vader was a cute kid, too. Maybe we're seeing a return of the Sith. ;)

    I like the idea that Star Wars isn't just a tale of one family fucking up the galaxy for everyone else. ;) I was totally OK with Rey's humble beginnings - though the concept really then draws parallels to 4,5, and 6 - as does the mysterious Snoke.

    Why I say that is- until Ep 1-3 + Clone wars, the emperor was simply a bigger bad guy who was unredeemable, much like Snoke. Both had a Skywalker brat on a leash and their presence was the threat more than anything.

    I was hoping the Knights of Ren (you eeediot!) would have had a role here - perhaps a twisted sense of honour or some compelling backstory. One that involved Ben Solo seeking force sensitives and drawing them out to indoctrinate them and bolster ranks.
    I did question why, after Snoke's final scene of the movie, that the red guards continued to fight with those present. At least one of them should have had the clout to demand they stand down.

  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member edited January 19
    Side note: can we get the OP changed to warn about spoilers so we don't have to keep hiding text? It's been a month. ;)
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member edited January 19
    For the continued griping about never-before-seen Force Powers, Rian Johnson posted a series of pics on Twitter that are pretty funny.

    DT60BnyUQAEcStd.jpg
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    DT60Nj1U0AAD_xW.jpg
    DT60STnVMAA4gCF.jpg


    The io9 article where I saw this, also points out how unnecessary this is in the first place by mentioning the previously unwitnessed X-Wing floating and Ben's Force Ghost in Empire, when he'd only been a disembodied voice in the previous movie.

    What kills me about the griping is that the self-professed "fans" are seeing it happen and are labeling it as "the impossible" and saying, "I don't believe it."
  • Rumpy
    Rumpy
    GT Member edited January 19
    uxFOOL wrote: »
    I'll say this- the Canto Blight stuff was the most prequel-ish part of the film, and I think a lot of that is due to the attempted social commentary aspect of it (I and II both had hamfisted ideas about social class and politics).


    I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, you're right. And the fact that they seemed to breeze right through it didn't help. Thematically though, it feels very much like an attempt at Cloud City, and is why I felt Lando would have felt right at home here, specifically when Maz Tanaka lists the credentials.

    Btw, as far as Luke goes, I know Mark Hamill was shocked to find out he'd be out and was expecting to return, but hey, Force Ghosts, everyone! If Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin all returned as Force Ghosts, they could bring him back in that capacity. If you think about it, every major jedi associated with the saga we've seen has had a Force Ghost associated with them. For Obi-Wan, it was Yoda. For Luke it was Obi-Wan, and sometimes Yoda. I'm willing to bet that for Rey, it's going to be Luke. I don't think his adventure is quite over :)
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    Er...Qui Gon? Mace Windu? All the others from Order 66?

    My theory is that you need a moment of peace/acceptance before joining the Force to become a Force Ghost.

    But, yes, given that Luke faded into the Force like the other FGs (although we didn't technically see Anakin), and given that Yoda showed up as a reminder that it happens (and given that Carrie Fisher died, so there's no one left, otherwise), I'd be more surprised if we didn't see Luke as a Force Ghost in the next movie.
  • uxFOOL
    uxFOOL
    GT Manager
    Yeah, we HAD to get Broom Boy and the promise of other force users- the ghosts currently outnumber the living force users!

    Mike Dunn
    Executive Producer & Editor-at-Large
    GAMING TREND

  • Rumpy
    Rumpy
    GT Member
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    Er...Qui Gon? Mace Windu? All the others from Order 66?

    DId we see them as Force Ghosts? I honestly can't remember.
    (although we didn't technically see Anakin).

    Well, Anakin/Vader depending on the version, but we know he's Anakin by the end of the movie anyway and either one is standing side by side with Obi-Wan and Yoda, so I think it counts.

    But this also poses an interesting question. Can only those who've redeemed themselves become Force Ghosts? Or are there records of Sith terrorizing as Force Ghosts?
    I'd be more surprised if we didn't see Luke as a Force Ghost in the next movie.

    Yeah, given how important a character he is to the franchise overall, it'd be silly not to take advantage of that. I fully expect him to give Rey some strength and advice on her road to defeating Kylo Ren.



  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    Rumpy wrote: »
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    Er...Qui Gon? Mace Windu? All the others from Order 66?

    DId we see them as Force Ghosts? I honestly can't remember.
    (although we didn't technically see Anakin).

    Well, Anakin/Vader depending on the version, but we know he's Anakin by the end of the movie anyway and either one is standing side by side with Obi-Wan and Yoda, so I think it counts.

    But this also poses an interesting question. Can only those who've redeemed themselves become Force Ghosts? Or are there records of Sith terrorizing as Force Ghosts?
    I'd be more surprised if we didn't see Luke as a Force Ghost in the next movie.

    Yeah, given how important a character he is to the franchise overall, it'd be silly not to take advantage of that. I fully expect him to give Rey some strength and advice on her road to defeating Kylo Ren.

    We did not see Qui Gon or any of the order from that period become FGs. None of the ones that we witnessed faded away, either.

    My point with Anakin was that we didn't see him fade away on screen, not that he wasn't a Force Ghost. Of course he was. We saw him.

    Also, as I mentioned, I don't think it's about redemption so much as it is about acceptance of becoming one with the Force (or death, at least). That said, I don't think you'll find that peace if you haven't found redemption, but redemption alone doesn't seem to be the key element.
  • Rumpy
    Rumpy
    GT Member
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    We did not see Qui Gon or any of the order from that period become FGs. None of the ones that we witnessed faded away, either.

    Ahh, Ok, thank you. I was wondering if maybe I had missed something.
    My point with Anakin was that we didn't see him fade away on screen, not that he wasn't a Force Ghost. Of course he was. We saw him.

    Oh, that's right. Makes better sense now.
    Also, as I mentioned, I don't think it's about redemption so much as it is about acceptance of becoming one with the Force (or death, at least). That said, I don't think you'll find that peace if you haven't found redemption, but redemption alone doesn't seem to be the key element.

    That's quite insightful. Yeah, I think you're right.
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    Well, there are lessons one must pass to become a force ghost, and has nothing to do with the Jedi training, per se.

    https://movieweb.com/force-ghosts-star-wars-canon/

    Both sides of the force are involved in the training. And apparently it can be taught posthumously so they could bring anyone back. How's that for a wild card.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Qui Gon only has a "very particular set of skills" and force ghost is not one of them. :#
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