[movie] Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member
    Yeah, the over the top stuff is the result of social media attitudes. People are just more outright meaner than they used to be.

    I think, really, a lot of a fans have a highly romanticized attitude of what Star Wars is to them which sets expectations unrealistically high.
  • farley2k
    farley2k
    GT Moderator
    Star Wars The Last Jedi Luke Skywalker Deleted Scenes Breakdown

  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I want to watch the deleted scenes clip, but I had a follow up to Laura Dern that occurred to me.
    Originally, I said it should have been Ackbar that saved the day. I still wish he'd had a more heroic end, especially given how parallel to the "It's a trap" moment this whole chase was, but I realized that having Ackbar in Laura Dern's place would mean you'd have Poe Dameron not only questioning a fan favorite, but also going behind his back. While that wouldn't have changed anything in the plot, it would have created the potential for hating Poe Dameron, which isn't ideal.

    It also occurred to me that I think we were meant to distrust Laura Dern, and that's only possible with an unknown character really (or someone who had changed sides, but apart from Finn, we don't have such a character). The problem here is that I never distrusted her. I certainly never thought she was secretly a traitor, but I didn't even suspect for a second that she didn't have a plan.

    In the end, while I loved the explosive move she pulled off, I'm still not sure that she was entirely necessary, though without her, the other characters wouldn't have much to do.
  • farley2k
    farley2k
    GT Moderator
    Thought about Dern's move
    If a ship going to light speed can destroy a ship like that why don't they have small unmanned ships that they can launch at huge capital ships? They could even launch them from far away so they couldn't be shot down. Maybe I am missing something?
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    farley2k wrote: »
    Thought about Dern's move
    If a ship going to light speed can destroy a ship like that why don't they have small unmanned ships that they can launch at huge capital ships? They could even launch them from far away so they couldn't be shot down. Maybe I am missing something?
    The ships in SW don't really have on-board AI (apart from targeting). The closest are the astromech droids. The Empire/1st Order might not have a problem sacrificing such minions (although they also don't seem to use them in the same way), it may be tough for the Rebellion/Resistance for financial or even moral reasons.

    Star Wars is all about manual piloting. And firing, for that matter. The computer may do the calculations for hyperspace, but someone's got to punch it.
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    So the more I think about this movie, the more I don't like it.

    The action shots are great, and there are some worthwhile moments.

    This movie was a progression in story, a handing of the baton, and a funnel in a casting sense. It didn't do any of these particularly well, and it's left me hollow inside.

    Here are some random thoughts:

    Things like the whole 1% (arms dealers etc) being trampled by the horses as some sort of defiance? It looked like crap, and didn't do anything for the movie. The horses will be recaptured and that one kid? Yes. We need another Anikin. :/

    Rey's parental issues are either dead (which I'm OK with) or Ben is lying. We'll see. It'd be nice if she's not of any significant "royal" bloodline but simply another orphan.

    Always orphans, right? No Christmas dinners with the family.

    The Death of Snoke was OK by me - in the movies Snoke was the Emperor, and before Episode 1 they both just represented the "greater evil than the villain" and were toss-aways otherwise. (Get it? Because Vader did...)

    Luke's fear of the dark side was always his undoing, and it was nice to see Yoda. Oddly placed and inexplicable his use of force lightning was.

    What the fuck was up with the "Ren and Stimpy's gross moment vignette" with the milking of the sea cow with it looking satisfyingly at Rey? Creepy.

    Leia's superpowers of flight were odd and totally broke suspension of disbelief for me.

    At the setup (scrolling text) posits that the First Order holds the seat of power, could they not have decided to NOT chase the remnants of the fleet and say have the Star destroyers "head them off at the pass"?

    Now we have another love triangle (or is it a hexagon) with Po hitting on Rey, Finn being an object of her affection and possibly building resentment or jealousy?

    Ugh. I had an opportunity to watch it, for free, for a second time.

    My time at work was worth more than that.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    I'm glad I religiously avoided reading as much as possible about the movie before I saw it last Friday, as I hate being even minutely influenced by oddball internet (or even friends) opinions. I loved it, and have been wanting to rewatch it, so that's obviously all good. I was shocked to later find how many things people were picking and hating on. Sure, some of it felt silly or wtf?, and maybe a bit gratuitous in parts, but I found it immensely enjoyable, and this is coming from someone who was not a fan of the ewoks. (It's not that I didn't like the ewoks themselves, but I felt like they marginalized the seriousness of the empire.) Too hard to address all the individual points in this thread, but suffice to say I'm pretty sure I could explain/debate most/any of them. Maybe once we go out of Spoiler mode it will be easier to discuss some of the individual plot points.

    What was really interesting to me was how well this movie played out in the sense of setting up the next one, but at the same time it felt like it could work as a fitting end to the series, i.e. ending with a sense of hope for the future while effectively closing the chapter (as in storylines for all the core characters) on the original trilogy.

    And all that aside, I'm totally in love with BB-8, he just steals the movie for me.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    No matter how folks feel about the movie, it certainly gets you thinking about it, and there's something to be said for that.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    I think, really, a lot of a fans have a highly romanticized attitude of what Star Wars is to them which sets expectations unrealistically high.

    I think Jimmy hits it dead on here. I remember when Force Awakens came out I had endless debates with an old friend from high school, and finally I had to remind him just how poor/awkward some of the acting and dialog was in the original trilogy. Even Empire, which I always say to people is my favorite, has some dialog which now makes me cringe. There are plenty of goofy moments and silly sci-fi inconsistencies (like with all their tech the empire can't discern the Millenium Falcon, a ship that has tormented them for generations, from trash lol?) If A New Hope came out in today's atmosphere, it probably would have been dissected and blasted to pieces, moreso if people had watched Eps 1-3 before it. But in our heads it's a "classic," so we are willing to forgive and in some cases, forget.

    These movies exist in a magic bubble for many of us from a particular generation (Gen X in particular I guess...) and I think our notion of the franchise as a whole just isn't realistic, or perhaps we take it way too seriously in ways it was never intended to be taken.


  • Blackjack
    Blackjack
    GT Member edited December 2017
    Quiz: Which Star Wars the Last Jedi Character Are You?
    http://www.starwars.com/news/quiz-which-star-wars-the-last-jedi-character-are-you

    I was a bit surprised by my result....
    I'm Kylo Ren???? :p
  • Blackjack
    Blackjack
    GT Member
    If you're curious about Rian Johnson's feelings about "fan backlash," Business Insider has a fairly extensive interview about it. It's spoilery if you haven't seen it yet so thus the link is in spoiler codes below to remind you. =) What I appreciate about Johnson to this point is that he's not defensive like, say, Robert Orci was about fan backlash on Star Trek into Darkness. I'm in the minority that enjoyed that movie, but the way he would wade into online discussions and just bash fans about their concerns/complaints about the movie was to me, not classy.

    In Johnson's current interviews, he's tried hard to explain the why's of the The Last Jedi's plot and what his reasoning was. I never get the sense he's insulting fans for any backlash/criticism. He does indicate in the interview that maybe 80-90% of feedback he gets online is very positive about the movie. I would guess it's just the people upset about various plot points make louder, more repetitive noise about it. And it's just way easier to tell the whole world you're ticked off about something than it was in 1977-1983.

    One could maybe accuse him of toeing the company line, but I sense from everything I've read about him he's a genuinely nice person, lifelong Star Wars fan and he "gets it" that fans are passionate. I would say at the least he's the right guy to deal with all this.
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member
    I really like that interview with Rian Johnson, along with a bunch of other interviews he did with other media outlets. His rationale for stuff like Snoke, Rey, Kylo, and the Force all makes sense in regards to storytelling and pushing things forward. It’s pretty obvious that he was fully aware that unless he made radical (and controversial) changes, the movie would have been just more rehash, and he’d still get ripped by fandom. The fact that he can now basically create whatever he wants from scratch in the future trilogy without the baggage of the old movies is pretty exciting to me. Star Wars really needs to be something far better than everyone’s nostalgic stroll back to their childhood.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    I saw Rian on Jimmy Kimmel (I think) with the whole cast, and he really came across as a likable, smart
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Quiz: Which Star Wars the Last Jedi Character Are You?
    http://www.starwars.com/news/quiz-which-star-wars-the-last-jedi-character-are-you

    I was a bit surprised by my result....
    I'm Kylo Ren???? :p

    Why is this spoilered? Anyway, I'm CHEWY!!!!

  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member
    I’m Finn.

    I approve.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    Gus Krieger
    December 16 at 11:11am ·

    This EMPIRE STRIKES BACK movie doesn’t make any sense at all. So they blow up the Death Star but the Empire’s just like NOT AFFECTED? They can still show up anywhere and do anything? Glad so many rebel pilots sacrificed themselves in A NEW HOPE, I guess. Plus uuuhhhh I don’t think humans can survive in the arctic overnight with just a coat or some animal intestines. It’s called Biology 101. And since when can smugglers use lightsabers?? Oh and I guess now we have ghosts in this universe too. Ugh. To make no mention of the tiny insane frog person who’s apparently the galaxy’s GREATEST JEDI MASTER?! Gimme a break. And while Luke is training, Han and Leia (who have NO IMPACT on the overall plot) get captured in like two seconds, so when Luke goes to rescue them, he’s done his massive grand Jedi training in, what, forty-eight hours?! Makes no sense. And don’t even get me started on this “I am your father” horseshit. A whole entire galaxy and Vader JUST HAPPENED to be passing over his freaking ESTRANGED SON’S home planet when he lost the Death Star plans one movie earlier??? SMH. And OHMYGOD the ultimate cheap-ass-machina when Leia just kinda INTUITS they should turn around and go pick up dangling Luke. The franchise has officially jumped the shark. Hoping Marquand can turn it around for Episode VI, but I’m not holding my breath.

    (In unrelated news, “The Last Jedi” is the best Star Wars film in over thirty years.)
  • Blackjack
    Blackjack
    GT Member edited December 2017
    I spoilered my quiz result to build suspense for the unexpected result. B)

    So I guess Collider.com wanted to bring balance to its coverage -- virtually its whole staff and main film critic loved The Last Jedi and don't find the fan complaints valid for the most part.

    So Collider then ran this lengthy diatribe from their "animation lead," who accuses Disney, Lucasfilm, Johnson, fans and critics who defend the movies, of various things. It seems awfully cynical to accuse them of willfully "burning down" the old Star Wars history/fandom to the ground in favor of the new ones.
    If that were the case, I'd argue they wouldn't have included the original cast members at all; they coulda just written them all off in the scrolling text at the start of The Force Awakens.

    The other hole in his rant imho, is he conveniently forgets what an annoying, goofball jerk Yoda acts like for much of The Empire Strikes back, until Luke figures out who he is. So it's not like the movies never had another Jedi Master who acted like a knucklehead. The writer/ranter also acts as if the other trilogies weren't ultimately wrapped up in the mission of selling more toys, blankets, clothing, keychains and what not. That's always been part of Star Wars, imho, long before Disney ever got its hands on it. I mean, I was sleeping on Star Wars bedsheets under Star Wars blankets in early 1978.

    Why Rian Johnson’s ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Is “The Fandom Menace” (URL in spoiler cuz, ya know, spoilers)
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member edited December 2017
    There is so much that is wrong in that guy's over the top flaming but this line in the article proves my point:

    "But as a longtime fan of the franchise myself, I’m flummoxed as to how Johnson, a self-professed fan of Star Wars, apparently took such delight in quite literally burning the hero’s history down to the ground while metaphorically slapping the fandom in the face in the process."

    This whole statement is completely based on his fanboy nostalgia love of the original trilogy. How dare Rian Johnson shit all over his childhood in such a mean spirited manner. Give me a break. These are the same fools who think Force Awakens is just a remake of A New Hope. There is NOTHING these new movies will do that will make any of them happy because they will never conform 100% to what their idea of Star Wars is or should be. So all they are left with is nitpicking the new films to a ridiculous level and getting all emo-mad that the Disney machine hates them. Before the Last Jedi came out, I'd read all their fanboy ideas of who Snoke is, who Rey's parents are, and what Luke has been doing since Return of the Jedi. The only ones who care about those lame fanboy theories are the delusional fanboys themselves. All this talk about Darth Plagieous (or however the hell it's spelled) being Snoke reincarnated. Rey being Luke or Obi-Wan's hidden love child. Come on, that stuff is so contrived it makes Star Wars feel like some incestuous family in-fight.

    I'm so done with Star Wars fandom. Rian Johnson did something brave, and yes, controversial but he's created a completely open canvas for JJ Abrams to pretty much take Rey vs Kylo Ren in any direction he wants. That to me is really exciting because episode 9 will be/should be a completely new experience.

    The other really exciting thing to me is that since Rian Johnson is now in charge of the next trilogy of movies, he can create all new characters and worlds without being shackled by the old legacy of Luke/Leia/Han and even Rey/Kylo Ren.

  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    The problem is there is no story arch here. There is no tie-together from Ep7-9, other than the existence of the characters. It's a disjointed mess, where peoples actions are so uncharacteristically different from what they have shown to be, that they aren't really the same people.

    Luke, for instance:
    - Denies the Jedi Order
    - yet lives at the temple, the most SUSPECT place one could expect to find the last Jedi
    - Calls it a laser sword. REALLY? Yeah, that's just pissing on the entire franchise from a fourth-wall breaking term. I can't think of a time they've ever used the word laser. Blasters, death star beam, etc. Laser isn't really in the common vernacular.
    - See's dark side in Kylo and goes to kill him.
    - Luke went to SACRIFICE HIS LIFE to try and save his fallen father because he sensed good in him.
    - Sea cow bukkake.. WTF??

    Nevermind the shift in time where the First Order have time in the opening credits to somehow control the entire galaxy after the stunning defeat, and yet pick up from where they left off.

    I could sit down and write out two hours worth of issues with this movie (let's just ignore airlocks and dropping things in space, or the ridiculous chase scene), but clearly the writing, directing and final cuts that leave me thinking that Han shooting second was just fine.
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member
    There is so much that is wrong in that guy's over the top flaming but this line in the article proves my point:

    "But as a longtime fan of the franchise myself, I’m flummoxed as to how Johnson, a self-professed fan of Star Wars, apparently took such delight in quite literally burning the hero’s history down to the ground while metaphorically slapping the fandom in the face in the process."

    This whole statement is completely based on his fanboy nostalgia love of the original trilogy. How dare Rian Johnson shit all over his childhood in such a mean spirited manner. Give me a break. These are the same fools who think Force Awakens is just a remake of A New Hope. There is NOTHING these new movies will do that will make any of them happy because they will never conform 100% to what their idea of Star Wars is or should be. So all they are left with is nitpicking the new films to a ridiculous level and getting all emo-mad that the Disney machine hates them. Before the Last Jedi came out, I'd read all their fanboy ideas of who Snoke is, who Rey's parents are, and what Luke has been doing since Return of the Jedi. The only ones who care about those lame fanboy theories are the delusional fanboys themselves. All this talk about Darth Plagieous (or however the hell it's spelled) being Snoke reincarnated. Rey being Luke or Obi-Wan's hidden love child. Come on, that stuff is so contrived it makes Star Wars feel like some incestuous family in-fight.

    I'm so done with Star Wars fandom. Rian Johnson did something brave, and yes, controversial but he's created a completely open canvas for JJ Abrams to pretty much take Rey vs Kylo Ren in any direction he wants. That to me is really exciting because episode 9 will be/should be a completely new experience.

    The other really exciting thing to me is that since Rian Johnson is now in charge of the next trilogy of movies, he can create all new characters and worlds without being shackled by the old legacy of Luke/Leia/Han and even Rey/Kylo Ren.

    It doesn't prove your point.

    The statement is fair. They didn't need to touch the history of Luke to tell the story.

    They turned Luke into a savage and tarnished him. He became a cold-blooded murderer and unable to accomplish anything other than another person to kill off. Oh, right, he force projected himself across the galaxy (neat trick, even the emperor used holograms) to "end it on a high note".

    The way in which the Force is used is inconsistent, and simply becomes the wildcard to fill in the gaps of inconsistent storytelling (I can think of several examples, including the flying Leia).

    I think the fanboyism works in both directions, where you want to see this movie as good *because* it's Star Wars.

    If you had only ever watched Episode 7 and 8, would this be an important, or even good, film?
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Purge wrote: »
    If you had only ever watched Episode 7 and 8, would this be an important, or even good, film?

    That's an impossible question to answer objectively/truthfully, but trying to be as objective as I possibly can, I would say - HELL YES. In fact my guess is they would be viewed even more highly because all of the things (inconsistencies, etc) that people have complained about would not be issues. Everything would be 100% new to the audience and judged as such, so there wouldn't be a ton of "rules" or expectations set in the back of peoples' heads. Don't forget the other problem is that many Star Wars fans not only have the old movies in their heads, but dozens of books and games and comics as well. Without any of that baggage, I think the movies become just all out FUN.
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member edited December 2017
    Okay, if we're going to go down this rabbit hole:
    The problem is there is no story arch here. There is no tie-together from Ep7-9, other than the existence of the characters
    We won't know that until ep 9 comes out, but I don't see how there is no continuity of characters from 7 to 8. Please elaborate.

    Nevermind the shift in time where the First Order have time in the opening credits to somehow control the entire galaxy after the stunning defeat, and yet pick up from where they left off.
    Kind of like how the Death Star blew up yet the Empire is still able to chase down the rebellion?

    The statement is fair. They didn't need to touch the history of Luke to tell the story.

    According to what rule? Fan expectation? Look, as long as they didn't do something completely out of left field, like make Luke a heartless mass murderer, the evolution of Luke in Last Jedi is fair game, in my opinion. It seems that a lot of people are really upset about this aspect. I get it. They changed Luke in a way that doesn't conform to what people think he should be, but the outright hate is unbelievable. It is well within reason to accept that Luke tried to restore the Jedi order, with good intentions, lost control of the situation out of overconfidence or hubris, became shattered and disillusioned by the whole thing and decided to just shut himself off from everyone. It's a dark take on Luke's backstory. I like it because it's not following the expected tropes people want. All the the other stuff like "laser sword" or sea cow bukkake" is just nitpicky minutiae.

    If you had only ever watched Episode 7 and 8, would this be an important, or even good, film?

    As rittchard said, that is an impossible question to ask. Episode 7 and 8 were not released in vacuum. If you want unscientific anecdotal feedback, my 13 year old daughter, who has no emotional attachment to any of the previous movies, other than having seen them once or twice over the years, enjoyed both 7 and 8 tremendously. She has emotional attachment to Rey and really loves that character. And within my circle of friends, it's mainly their kids who are more familiar with these new movies that the previous ones and they all love 7 and 8. The only ones I observed who are just losing their minds hostile are hardcore fans and as I've said, their emotional sentimental attachment to ep 4, 5, and 6 is over the top bizarre.

    That being said, there ARE problems with Last Jedi. WWII style bombing runs, Leia's out of nowhere force power, the entire casino planet section, the mystery of why Holdo had to keep her grand plan a secret from Poe, are all pretty stupid. But there's stupid stuff in all the Star Wars movies. Nitpicking all these films is practically a fandom tradition now and I'm kind of tired of that. If the next movie ends up being a disaster then I might very well change my whole outlook but I like JJ Abrams as a director, so I have confidence that he will bring all these story arcs to a satisfying conclusion.

    ***I had to come back and add this part after I had finished the above stuff. To be clear, Purge, I don't want to make is seem like I'm annoyed at you or anything. It wouldn't be right of me to complain about fanboy anger only to come across as the same but from the opposite point of view. Star Wars means many things to each of us. I count myself as more than just a casual fan, and maybe my opinion is influenced by my own love of the old movies, but I feel I can let that go to a certain degree in order to enjoy these new movies. I should stop reading the bluray.com messageboards. The hate over there is truly amazing. But's the fact that I like all of you folks here on GT makes it more comfortable for me to express my opinions here rather than wading into the conversation over on bluray.com.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Okay, if we're going to go down this rabbit hole:
    That being said, there ARE problems with Last Jedi. WWII style bombing runs, Leia's out of nowhere force power, the entire casino planet section, the mystery of why Holdo had to keep her grand plan a secret from Poe, are all pretty stupid.
    It's funny because none of that stuff bothered me in the least.

    The Luke stuff seemed like an interesting character arc, and much more of an ADULT arc than he'd had before. I thought it was fantastic, and probably difficult for an actor who, let's face it, is fairly limited. I really enjoyed the way it unfolded from the different perspectives, and how each person's truth was distorted as we watch it unfold. Even the gratuitous milking scene I thought was fine, he was trying to act obnoxious to get rid of Rey (or test her), in very much an echo of what Yoda did with him. As for his final move, I thought it was an interesting twist. They show us his ship sunken in the water, and I think everyone just assumes he's going to lift it out and fly back. But hey, what if the ship doesn't actually work anymore? Or he ran out of fuel? It's actually more plausible that he never intended to leave the island and the ship was dead in the water so to speak, leaving him with no other way to help out in time than to use his Jedi Spirit technique.

    The lame bombers were a bit annoying, but hey, they had to use whatever they were left with. Those ships were probably designed with bombing land based targets in mind, and that's the best crap the rebellion could afford lol.

    Leia's power was a definite "surprise", but Rian Johnson likened it to a mother showing superhuman strength to save her baby, an instinctual power of self preservation. As others have noted, we've been shown all sorts of different uses/manipulations of Force powers, and frankly a telekinetic shield is very much in line with other manifestations we've seen (like Force push and Force shields to block lasers, etc.). I don't get why people are so weirded out by her use of power being a slight variant, essentially a TK bubble. Then again, I read a ton of comic books so I may be more open to things like power variations. It reminds me a bit of when one of the newer writers of Fantastic Four (maybe John Byrne?) started doing super cool powers with Invisible Girl, using her invisible force bubbles as weapons as well as shields. People freaked out at first but really it was just a new, creative way to manipulate the same effects, and it really made her awesome. Pretty much the same thing here. It would have been great to see what else they had in store for her character.

    Casino planet, I don't remember too much of, but when I see it again, I'll pay more attention. I thought it was a fun little diversion, echoing the diversion on Bespin with a similar outcome of someone helping, and then betraying our heroes. Again, no idea why it would bother people, as it seemed like a call back to Empire mixed with the desire to show us a Vegas-esque environment.

    And the Holdo thing? I took her at face value when she said she didn't trust
    Poe. Don't forget he had just gotten a bunch of fighters killed because he refused a direct order. So why would/should she tell him her plan if she didn't trust him? Just because as the audience we know he's one of the "stars" doesn't mean other characters have to treat him that way. In an actual chain of command situation, it was need to know, and he had just been demoted and proven himself untrustworthy. Made perfect sense to me.

    Anyway, kind of fun to discuss/debate these points.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member

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    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/f9b61d46-a3d4-4b0c-bf53-ac4262cb8e0e
    When Luke said it, he was almost being sarcastic (certainly condescending). Some see it as a jab at this moment from the prequel.
  • Blackjack
    Blackjack
    GT Member edited December 2017
    The thing about the Leia Thing....
    I can appreciate "variants" of Force abilities but afik the only glimpses she'd ever shown in Empire, ROTJ and Force Awakens was a very mild "mind link" with Luke or sense something had gone wrong in Force Awakens. It's a pretty big leap from that to "now I can breathe and thaw my frozen body in space and then fly a great distance in space like I have jet boots on." :o

    Star Wars in terms of what's realistic or logistical has always been inherently ludicrous, I know; it's inspired by Flash Gordon serials, not NASA simulators. I just found it a jarring jump in her abilities with no clue ever given she'd be able to even know to do something like that.

    I wish Carrie had gotten to do more in these last two movies of hers. I realize she wasn't a youngster anymore. Maybe asking her to run around firing blasters, or riding around on a speeder, or whatever wasn't something she was up to. I just feel like other than "Space Ghost" sequence she generally wasn't allowed to do much more than be a talking head... and oh yeah shoot Poe, which was quite baffling at the time.

    And this was after she'd been asked to lose weight and use a fitness trainer for Awakens (which she complained about a lot in interviews). If she was being asked to do that, I wish she'd gotten to be a bit more active of a character in her finale performances.

    Oh on the bombers. Maybe some day Johnson will answer the reasoning/background on those. I almost wonder if they're riffing on the U.S. Navy's initial terrible Devastator torpedo-bombers of early WWII. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator These were by WWII standards slow, not maneuverable, and sitting ducks for Japanese fighters. But that's what they had in early battles, so they just took their lumps, and a lot of young USN pilots/tail gunners died in the process.

    I might've found in TLJ more sensible some sort of large ship with multiple proton torpedo launchers. Or they could've been such torpedoes modified to carry multiple fragment bombs (as in the movie), that blow up in clusters when approaching the target. See? They should've hired me for ordinance suggestions. :)

    I loved the movie generally, and hope to see it a couple more times maybe.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    Blackjack wrote: »
    The thing about the Leia Thing....
    I can appreciate "variants" of Force abilities but afik the only glimpses she'd ever shown in Empire, ROTJ and Force Awakens was a very mild "mind link" with Luke or sense something had gone wrong in Force Awakens. It's a pretty big leap from that to "now I can breathe and thaw my frozen body in space and then fly a great distance in space like I have jet boots on." :o

    Star Wars in terms of what's realistic or logistical has always been inherently ludicrous, I know; it's inspired by Flash Gordon serials, not NASA simulators. I just found it a jarring jump in her abilities with no clue ever given she'd be able to even know to do something like that.

    I wish Carrie had gotten to do more in these last two movies of hers. I realize she wasn't a youngster anymore. Maybe asking her to run around firing blasters, or riding around on a speeder, or whatever wasn't something she was up to. I just feel like other than "Space Ghost" sequence she generally wasn't allowed to do much more than be a talking head... and oh yeah shoot Poe, which was quite baffling at teh time.

    And this was after she'd been asked to lose weight and use a fitness trainer for Awakens (which she complained about a lot in interviews). If she was being asked to do that, I wish she'd gotten to be a bit more active of a character in her finale performances.

    Oh on the bombers. Maybe some day Johnson will answer the reasoning/background on those. I almost wonder if they're riffing on the U.S. Navy's initial terrible Devastator torpedo-bombers of early WWII. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator These were by WWII slow, not maneuverable, and sitting ducks for Japanese fighters. But that's what they had in early battles, so they just took their lumps, and a lot of young USN pilots/tail gunners died in the process.

    I might've found in TLJ more sensible some sort of large ship with multiple proton torpedo launchers. Or they could've been such torpedoes modified to carry multiple fragment bombs (as in the movie), that blow up in clusters when approaching the target. See? They should've hired me for ordinance suggestions. :)

    I loved the movie generally, and hope to see it a couple more times maybe.
    But your clue that she was able to do the Force Float was her doing it. It's meant to be a surprise and revelation at the same time. I had a friend who complained about the cameo in Rogue One with the "He doesn't like you - I don't like you either" dudes because the city blew up shortly after. He ranted, "What, did they get on a ship before that happened and fly to Tatooine??" Yes. Because the evidence you have it that they were there and then they were somewhere else shortly afterward. So, they went from one place to the other.

    I suspect it might have been further explored in the next film, but we won't be seeing that, I guess.

    As for the bombers, I don't really get why they bother people as much as they do. The gravity in space argument doesn't make sense to me when we're dealing with large ships that are clearly generating a gravity field of some kind (again, too, your evidence that things fall in space in that situation is that things fell in space). I suspect these clear WWII inspired ships were put into the movie as an homage to how the trench run in ANH was inspired by (and in many ways copied from) the movie The Dam Busters (which is, of course, based on history). I would rather have seen a new Y-Wing, personally, but I very much enjoyed the human effort required to get the doors to open, so I forgave their absence (and chalked it up to needing a larger payload).
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member edited December 2017
    About those bombers:
    I read an article the other day, which unfortunately, I can’t recall which website at the moment, where Rian Johnson responded to the criticism of why there are old school bombs dropping in space and the explanation was that they were magnetic bombs, so that’s why a) the bombs fell and b) those ships had to get so close to the dreadnought.

    I’ll see if I can find that article again.

    Here’s the article, from Gizmodo. The explanation actually comes from the visual dictionary book for the movie:

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-biggest-revelations-from-the-last-jedis-official-gu-1821407270
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Regarding Leia/Powers:
    To me it was no less "baffling" than Rey beating Kylo in her first real battle, didn't she seem to level up force-wise out of the blue?

    But Leia's power is/was even more understandable to me, since just like any typical mutant when they first discover their powers, they often do it under extreme duress and do something pretty incredible. It's like the stress/strain jumpstarts their powers beyond what they would even be able to normally do consciously, because their subconscious/willpower takes them to a different level. I don't think we were meant to believe she was practicing and knowingly capable of this specific capability, I think it was something that happened spontaneously as self preservation (see Phoenix and/or other assorted mutant comics as a reference).
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    rittchard wrote: »
    Regarding Leia/Powers:
    To me it was no less "baffling" than Rey beating Kylo in her first real battle, didn't she seem to level up force-wise out of the blue?

    But Leia's power is/was even more understandable to me, since just like any typical mutant when they first discover their powers, they often do it under extreme duress and do something pretty incredible. It's like the stress/strain jumpstarts their powers beyond what they would even be able to normally do consciously, because their subconscious/willpower takes them to a different level. I don't think we were meant to believe she was practicing and knowingly capable of this specific capability, I think it was something that happened spontaneously as self preservation (see Phoenix and/or other assorted mutant comics as a reference).
    She didn't really seem surprised by it, though. Although, to that point, neither did Rey, really. I assumed she'd had some history with the Force, but chose not to pursue it. But I don't know that we're getting an answer now, anyway, so either works.
  • Blackjack
    Blackjack
    GT Member edited December 2017
    My maybe last word on Leia's thing....
    Again, I love the movie, plan to see it a 3rd time soon.

    I'm all for "force evolution" but how does Leia evolve from minor "mind links" with Luke or Rey to "I can avoid instant death in the vacuum of space, I can unfreeze myself at will in outer space, I can then fly I would estimate miles in deep space like I'm wearing freaking rocket boots to save myself." I just found that a ludicrous "force evolution leap" for The Last Jedi to make, esp. given there's no indication she had any training. I dunno, maybe there's some obscure SW Novel where Leia evolves into Force Captain Marvel. Or where Luke tells her, "Hey sis, if you EVER get like BLOWN into outer space, here's what ya do!"

    Though if she hadn't gotten that scene, her last two SW performances would basically be "talking head" scenes and 'looking concerned/worried' scenes, aside from laser blasting Poe in TLJ. I'm glad she got to have scenes with Harrison and Mark to do. It just seems ironic that in an era full of strong female characters getting to do lots of things, Carrie didn't really get to do much in her last two SW films.

    And so this toy parody sort of supports one of my Luke observations:


    Which is that, geeze, what the heck is the point of the lactating island beast scene and Luke guzzling his fresh "beast teat milk" with gusto; and using giant poles to catch giant fish? I just feel like it's "island minutae" we don't need to know -- I don't care how Luke sustained himself on the island -- so why not cut 5-10 minutes of dross from the movie there? For a more concise movie and focus more on what matters (characters/story)
  • Purge
    Purge
    GT Member edited December 2017
    The sarcastic reference (bullwinkle) would be in response to, what, a movie that came out 19 years ago with a comment from a child-version of someone who'd be a grandfather? Where's the connective tissue there, versus the years and years of "it's not a laser sword, it's a light saber".
    I suspect Mark Hamill's redaction of his comments have to do with hurting the business and fragmenting the star wars movie goers - I completely agree with the entirety of his original comments.

    The numbers don't lie - 52% on rotten tomatoes - lower than even The Hated Menace (most guides recommending the best viewing order tell you to skip it).

    Fact is, if the Star Wars label wasn't on it, this movie would be an OK second. Whether that's JJ or Rian's fault (as he had to work with what he was given), it doesn't stand up to the original series, and besides the critics' love for it, the fans of the series as a group are unsatisfied.

    I watched Thor this year - after the Dark World I was not looking forward to it.

    It stands head-and-shoulders above a movie like this, and it shouldn't.

    I didn't watch trailers, I didn't read anything about it. I wanted to be surprised.

    I was.
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