[TV] The Walking Dead - Currently Season 9 (Careful there will be Spoilers!)

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  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    rittchard wrote: »
    Nice lead-in episode for next week's mid-season finale, in which we have been promised something really "major." Another "big" death? Yawn. Is it Carl so he can go off to college?

    WHY WHY WHY?!?!?! Sometimes I hate myself for my sarcastic comments lol. I really thought I was mentally prepared for Carl to go, but now that it is happening, I just don't feel ready. As soon as the first scene with Carl and Rick aired, I was dreading that I had predicted correctly. I kept hoping they were deliberately messing with us, but he was getting too many "big" moments/scenes, so I knew his time was limited. I think I've been one of the few steadfast Carl fans from day one of the show, so this one really hits hard. Watching him grow up on the show was like watching my nephew or the kid next door, it just hurts more than it should. I still remember vividly (also because I recently saw the scene again) the scene in season 2 where he had been shot and Herschel was trying to save him, and he did this crazy convulsing thing. I was like holy crap this kid is good, I could barely stand to watch that scene without feeling the intensity.

    Anyway, it's interesting to note that the actor and producers are saying it doesn't have to do with his going to college. He said he even just bought a house down there, interestingly enough. I think I would have felt better if they just said it was so that he could move on, more like Sasha. I'm wondering if it was more of a contract negotiation thing because it's hard to believe the writers wanted to do this for the story, which is how they are selling it. Carl is still huge in the comics in the later parts of the comic, so it's going to be interesting to see how (and with who) they fill the void.

    Back to the episode itself - really an excellent one, except for perhaps some minor confusion as to who was where and when, again one of the things this team doesn't seem good at conveying. I was also confused by Carl's seeming injury, which I assumed was from when he fell, and also Michonne was acting really weird the whole time (did she already know?). Nonetheless, we had some fantastic scenes with Maggie and Eugene, short as they were, on top of the lead Carl storyline. The Carl-Negan exchange was gold, I'd give them both Emmy nominations. Watching the last scenes between Rick and Carl is going to be really hard for me, I'm tearing up just thinking about it.

    I still wish they would write their way out of it, I'd be fine with any deus ex machina to save him. Peanut butter creates immunity! His near death experience already cleared him of the virus! The virus exited with his eyeball! There are tons of ways to keep him alive if they wanted, but based on the interviews it seems like it's already done. I'm sad.
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member
    Yeah, for a moment, I was thinking "when the hell did Carl get bitten??" then he casually dropped the reference to the other guy, which I didn't get until after the episode was over and I had to think back to that fight in the woods. I'm guessing the fight was roughly 24 hours previous? The jumping around in time this season has been confusing as hell.

    One thing I am completely mystified by is how did Negan and the Saviors get away from the walker horde? Did I miss something? Every time someone asked that question it seems the answer was "oh it was Eugene". Okay but HOW?? Couldn't be iPod armed drone (which was all sorts of lame) since it was shot down by wannabe Daryl.
  • Blackjack
    Blackjack
    GT Member edited December 2017
    I just surf the show randomly these days. Sometimes the Talking Dead show afterwards seems more interesting to me than the actual episodes. I guess this isn't the first time I was keen on a show in its first few seasons and then lost interest as the series seemed to go on forever (NCIS and Bones for example), favorite characters faded away or were killed off, and the new characters just weren't as interesting to me.

    I think putting the obnoxious Negan that close to finally getting his comuppance and then "oops guess not" was a cheap shot. AMC seems so in love with Jeffrey Dean Morgan, I'm afraid they'll just give him a Dramedy spinoff called "That Crazy Negan!" :#

    I suppose soon enough Gimple will kill off Rick, Darryl, Michonne and Maggie, and ask fans to stay interested in essentially a bunch of nobodies, as this community goes after that community, and that community is burned down the ground by this over other community, and then the remaining communities go after each other in a endless circle. I was a big defender of the show for years, but for years now it just feels like it's going in circles.

    I get it. Humanity sucks. There's no cure. You can't trust nobody. Great. So what's the point of the show now? They've had Rick murder his best friend, hear about his wife dying and becoming a walker after giving birth and their son having to put a bullet in her brain and oh yeah then maybe she got eaten too, good friends pulp-beaten to death etc. What's the point putting him through more? I just don't enjoy watching the show anymore. There was some fine balance between horror/gore and hopelessness, and hopefullness and trying to reach a goal somewhere. I don't feel that anymore watching it.

    Apparently Chandler Riggs' father is pissed off because he alleges AMC and Gimple that his son's character would remain part of the show the next three years. Maybe they just meant in terms of ghoulish flashbacks?

    I'm sure ratings remain fine. In a way I'm glad to have my Sunday evenings free again for PC gaming, so there's that. =)
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    One thing I am completely mystified by is how did Negan and the Saviors get away from the walker horde? Did I miss something? Every time someone asked that question it seems the answer was "oh it was Eugene". Okay but HOW?? Couldn't be iPod armed drone (which was all sorts of lame) since it was shot down by wannabe Daryl.

    I think they are still saving that reveal for a rainy day. All we know is it involved a lot of bullets. Remember how Negan asked Eugene if he would be able to replenish their supply after the plan was enacted? So maybe it was as simple as he lured all the zombies into the room (with music or whatever) where they kept their ammunition and then blew it up. Or used some super machine gun. The important thing is it was all Eugene's plan, so everything that happens now he is in some ways responsible for, which is likely going to weigh heavily on him in the aftermath.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Oh yeah, and for BJ, it's not so much AMC being in love with Negan as it is Robert Kirkland. Clearly they chose a fairly well known (and well liked) actor to play the role for a reason.

    Comic Spoiler:
    Negan ends up surviving the war and ultimately joins Rick. He's still an asshole but he saves Rick a couple of times.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I thought I had missed something with the Eugene Solution, too. Good to know it hasn't been made clear yet. But it's another example of the sloppy time jumping. I'm not against these things on principal, but they have been all over the place lately.

    I came back in to mention how much I also like Maggie's stuff and especially Eugene. Really strong Eugene stuff. Kudos to that actor.

    In the Maggie story, though, the one thing I didn't like was when the killed off Generic Beard. I mean, were we supposed to know that guy? They gave him a line so he'd seem important for half a second before his obvious fodder role came to fruition. Before the end, I was feeling ripped off that his was the only death we were getting. Man, they made up for it.

    Maggie hasn't killed a human, has she? She certainly seemed to have crossed a line for herself in taking down Savior Douche. That scene where she walked away afterwards was really powerful. And I love her ballsy plan with the coffin, but I don't see how it doesn't end with a dead Jerry.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    So, it turns out that after we lose Carl, it's just going to be an episodic ticking clock to when Maggie is going to die. She booked a lead on another show.

    That really sucks. She is one of the main reasons to watch.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I don't know that Chandler Riggs is the greatest actor in the world, but I was still very said to say goodbye to Coral, and I think he got some great moments last night. Most importantly, he solidified his role as the voice of the show, delivering the messages that we can't lost our humanity and society needs to continue with such force that his dad seems to have heard them, and they may give the show some renewed focus.

    I have heard that Negan sticks around in the comics and even joins the team, and the "vision" sure seems to lend itself to that. Plus, they all but promise us that no harm will come to Jerry, so that's a win. Of course, there's no guarantee that any of that will come true, but it was still nice to see, and I enjoyed the twist that it was actually Coral's vision. That even sort of almost explained the cheat of having Coral walking through an early shot of the vision (but it didn't really...boo, that was cheap).

    I'm sure there was a temptation to make this episode all Coral-centric and save the story-progression stuff for next week, but I'm glad they didn't do that. The Zeke stuff was great, and the payoff at the end, with once-again broken Morgan seeing what his revenge-brain wrought in that kid paralleled nicely with Coral's speechifying.

    And not a trash person in sight.

    So, the windchimey red-eyed Rick stuff that started the season and came into focus at the end of this episode seems to be a bigger plot point than just rheumey-eyed Rick lamenting his son's death. Maybe I'm reading into it too much?

    Anyway, I like Negan, and I enjoy the prospect of the character sticking around. If he gets redemption, it really will be the ultimate test of Coral's Message, and it'll bring a lot of hope back to the world. But, man, Negan kind of deserves to die, too, you know? I can only think of one way that they can make his death not be the most satisfying outcome, and that's to make someone else worse. Likely, GTA Trevor (which sucks, because I like him even more than Negan). So I expect Negan to be brought pathetically low, either by Rick and company, or by a betrayal within the Saviors, or both. Even so, though, it's going to be a hard ass pill to swallow, forgiving the Glenn and Abraham head-smasher. Especially for Maggie. Maybe that's why she'll leave?
  • Jimmy the Fish
    Jimmy the Fish
    GT Member edited February 26
    I thought it was a well done episode. Carl's scenes toward the end were beautifully framed, especially in the bombed out church. Although, a part of me kept thinking "how long is it going to take for him to die already??". I don't read the comic but seeing the discussion about Negan on Talking Dead, it seems pretty likely that the show will mirror the plot of Negan being spared and joining the group. Carl's death and symbolism is a plot point that would hammer that home and make the whole Negan twist believable because otherwise it would seem so completely implausible.

    The red eye Rick scenes are hypothesized to be scenes after a supposed confrontation with Negan where he could have killed him but let him go instead. We'll see.

    The reveal that the happy times visions with old Rick were Carl's visions of what he hoped the future to be was a really nice touch and a great way to provide context to those scenes.

    The stuff with Morgan going psycho was getting a bit one note and I wasn't sure why they were making his character swing wildly from zen pacifist to rage killer but it was all clear with the stuff involving the kid at the end. Nice touch. Still wondering how they are going to figure out the pivot of moving Morgan to Fear the Walking Dead.

    Prior to watching the episode, it was interesting that I really didn't have any excitement over the anticipation of the show resuming. In fact, I was feeling that it was going to be a total chore to get back into the rest of the season. Maybe I was feeling Walking Dead burnout or I just got fed up with the various problems I've had building up over season after season. The show has some great moments but there is so much stupidity in the writing and direction, but just when I thought it was time to stop watching they bring out last night's episode and now I'm back in. Damn, that Scott Gimple.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    It's definitely an interesting time for the show. I saw the rumors about Maggie leaving, but so far they are just rumors. She signed to do a pilot, but that's all at the moment - it's as much a negotiating technique as anything else. She was asking for more salary parity with Rick and Daryl, which IMHO she 100% deserves. I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason we lost Carl was also due to negotiations gone awry. Even though he got into college, he took a "gap year" so he could easily have done another season, and perhaps his agent was asking for more money and screen time - which also he deserves.

    As for last night's ep, I will be honest and say I haven't wept that much for any TV/movie show character ever. I started tearing up in the replay of the finale and then had tears going pretty much every scene they did. I can't explain exactly why it affected me so much, but as noted before I've been a Carl fan since day one, starting from the comic - so it's been even more years for me to be attached to the character. I did feel like the farewell sequences with Rick and Michonne dragged out just a tad longer than they should have; I think they could have cut one or two of the scenes, but all in all it was about as good as you can get for a show like this. I loved the simplicity of Daryl's goodbye, and the heart-wrenching dialog when he bids farewell to his sister. Loved the polaroid selfie shot too, that was a fantastic touch. The B-story action plot was pretty cool, I guess they are setting up Morgan to leave the group for Fear. He'll probably say he's too dangerous to stick around or something.

    As for the dream sequences, I think the reveal is that these were all Carl's vision of the future that he saw in his mind's eye and are not meant to be a flash forward or a sign of who survives or what Negan does. It's simply what he believes is possible. Since he isn't Bran from GoT, there's no reason to assume any of his dream sequences will play out.

    That leaves red eyed Rick, which is not part of the dreams and does indeed look like a flash forward. It almost looks like he's been infected. Would they be so bold as to kill Rick off? At this point, who knows? With all the contract issues and actor fatigue, perhaps they are planning ahead for a complete wipe of the original core. It's interesting that they've kept side characters around for such a long time, many could easily be disposed of in my mind (Rosita, Fist Bump, Gabriel, etc). They could easily end the main show and spin it off with the side characters, or just continue the main show with new leads. I doubt that would ever happen but I also never thought they'd kill Carl.

    As for Negan...
    In the comic, I think Rick ends up sparing him and keeping him in the cage that they held the tiger in. I may be remembering the details wrong but something like that. Over time he develops a rapport with Carl, and still over more time he ends up helping them against some really nasty new bad guys. He never really becomes super "good" but he saves Rick's life a couple times which buys him some good will.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    You can't sign on to a pilot if you're not available. No studio would agree to that. It does happen sometimes that you get cast in something else in between the time the pilot gets made and the show gets picked up, but no one would knowingly film a pilot with a lead who was also a lead in another show.

    The thing about Carl's dream sequences are in his line about knowing them to be true and understanding why the other characters can't see it. He's dying and full of Important Wisdom. These sequences are delivered as more than just what he believes is possible, so there absolutely is reason to assume they mean for these things to play out. There's just no reason to be confident that they will.

    I didn't get Infected from Rick's eyes, just very, very emotional, but who knows? Anything is possible. Andrew Lincoln is definitely going to get tired of doing this at some point.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    You can't sign on to a pilot if you're not available. No studio would agree to that. It does happen sometimes that you get cast in something else in between the time the pilot gets made and the show gets picked up, but no one would knowingly film a pilot with a lead who was also a lead in another show.

    The thing about Carl's dream sequences are in his line about knowing them to be true and understanding why the other characters can't see it. He's dying and full of Important Wisdom. These sequences are delivered as more than just what he believes is possible, so there absolutely is reason to assume they mean for these things to play out. There's just no reason to be confident that they will.

    I didn't get Infected from Rick's eyes, just very, very emotional, but who knows? Anything is possible. Andrew Lincoln is definitely going to get tired of doing this at some point.

    Interesting: "Cohan had been one of the most sought-after actors this broadcast season, fielding more than half-dozen offers before choosing the ABC project. While she will be a series regular on Whiskey Cavalier, I hear her deal allows the actress potentially to return to The Walking Dead, reprising her fan-favorite role as Maggie on a recurring basis should she is able to make a new pact with AMC. I hear there are no current negotiations with the cable network, but the production schedules of the zombie drama would not interfere with her duties on Whiskey Cavalier if the pilot is picked up to series."

    So her contract let her entertain a pilot, but that doesn't mean much until it actually gets picked up. And as much as I love Scott Foley, he doesn't have a great track record lol. I would love to see her work out a deal where she can be the lead in one show and still come back as Maggie.

    The next stage of the comics leaves a lot of room for this kind of thing, which is what I thought they'd do with Carl. There are so many characters and locations you certainly don't need to have everyone in it all the time. The question is whether they want to keep going with this kind of expanded ensemble route. The show still works the best when there's a smaller core of characters to watch/care about, as last night's episode showed.

  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    You can't sign on to a pilot if you're not available. No studio would agree to that. It does happen sometimes that you get cast in something else in between the time the pilot gets made and the show gets picked up, but no one would knowingly film a pilot with a lead who was also a lead in another show.

    The thing about Carl's dream sequences are in his line about knowing them to be true and understanding why the other characters can't see it. He's dying and full of Important Wisdom. These sequences are delivered as more than just what he believes is possible, so there absolutely is reason to assume they mean for these things to play out. There's just no reason to be confident that they will.

    I didn't get Infected from Rick's eyes, just very, very emotional, but who knows? Anything is possible. Andrew Lincoln is definitely going to get tired of doing this at some point.

    Interesting: "Cohan had been one of the most sought-after actors this broadcast season, fielding more than half-dozen offers before choosing the ABC project. While she will be a series regular on Whiskey Cavalier, I hear her deal allows the actress potentially to return to The Walking Dead, reprising her fan-favorite role as Maggie on a recurring basis should she is able to make a new pact with AMC. I hear there are no current negotiations with the cable network, but the production schedules of the zombie drama would not interfere with her duties on Whiskey Cavalier if the pilot is picked up to series."

    So her contract let her entertain a pilot, but that doesn't mean much until it actually gets picked up. And as much as I love Scott Foley, he doesn't have a great track record lol. I would love to see her work out a deal where she can be the lead in one show and still come back as Maggie.

    The next stage of the comics leaves a lot of room for this kind of thing, which is what I thought they'd do with Carl. There are so many characters and locations you certainly don't need to have everyone in it all the time. The question is whether they want to keep going with this kind of expanded ensemble route. The show still works the best when there's a smaller core of characters to watch/care about, as last night's episode showed.

  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    They were saying the same kind of BS about Sasha, if you remember. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Rick's move with Negan costs him Maggie, and she just walks off. This would allow for the character to pop back in for cameos (or a triumphant return, should her other projects fail).
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Interesting ep last night. I'm not quite sure where I sit with it. I think in general it was kind of disappointing. First off, I'm not sure the new "single character perspective" added much. It seems like they could have just left out the character name and it would have flowed similarly to recent episodes. Why was the first one Michonne? Why was the later one Enid (and not Aaron)? Who knows? Anyway I'll do my analysis roughly like theirs.

    Aaron and the Fish Ladies
    They are spending an awful lot of energy to get like 2 or 3 chicks to help them fight. Is it really worth the effort? Especially since they almost got themselves killed yet again. They could easily have wrote these ladies off without killing them, how many times do they have to say NO?

    Then T-Pol and the Trash People
    WTF seriously after all the effort Rick made to get them on board, that's how they end their plotline? I was all for cleaning house but this was ridiculous.

    Simon
    Whoa, this seemed a little out of the blue. At least they advanced his storyline I guess. Clearly not going to end well for him.

    Rick/Negan
    This was the only thing I enjoyed last night. I liked seeing Negan's reaction to Carl's death, he looked genuinely upset. I was afraid he wasn't going to find out until way later. I also liked that Carl wrote him a letter, though the tease was a bit annoying. What Negan said was definitely true from Negan's perspective; if Rick had just found a way to cooperate, Carl would likely still be alive. Obviously it's not that simple but it must be a massive burden on Rick. BTW his eyes are starting to get pretty red so I guess that's all that was.

    All in all kind of a bummer episode for me. Maybe I'm still bitter about Carl's death but I honestly think it was a mistake, and this episode didn't make me feel any differently. The producers are always saying when they do these big deaths it has to pay off for the audience. Consider me skeptical.

  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I agree with everything you said, rittchard, but I still liked the episode. Mostly, I was happy to see the end of the Trash People. Well, "happy" may not be the right word for that Tubby Custard they turned into. That may be the grossest thing in recent memory. But, man, it was satisfying for me. The goddamned zombies they turned into were more articulate than those poseur freaks. And when she started talking about Art in full sentences, it was clearer than ever that T'Pol was just the poseuriest of poseurs. I know we're not done with her, but, as much as I want Rick to get with the whole Carl Program, I agree with his attitude of "Nah, you know what? Fuck this looney."

    I also really loved everything with GTA Trevor here, even if it's clearly spelling his doom. I was worried tonight was going to see his end, in fact. I don't think it'll be long, and that kind of sucks because I really love the energy Simon brings to this show.

    The Aquawomen really don't seem worth the effort, I agree. Did they already get a stockpile of weapons from them? I thought they did, but I admit I can't remember. If not, that might be worth it, but they seemed to be after the body count, not the munitions. Now that the Trash Tribe is Alpo, it's left to these ladies to pull the inevitable Han Solo move when the big fight finally comes (in, what, two more seasons?).

    The title cards seemed to be trying to add some high-falutinness to the proceedings or something, but they just came off as superfluous. Plus, it's hard to take anything this show is putting out there seriously when they're also tossing in 70's grindhouse-style character zooms. What the hell was up with zooming in on Rick and Michone's faces during the Trash Zombie battle? Michone's wasn't even a real zoom! They just digitally pulled in on the image itself. Chuh-hee-zee!
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    LOL, nice post Bull!

    As far as Aquawomen, I'm pretty sure I remember they took most if not all their guns a while ago. So really all they stand to gain is some stinky fish and maybe a few slightly decent fighters. I really don't see how that will turn the tide. Maybe if they add T'Pol too? So much effort and screen time put into these plotlines, really feels more and more like a waste of time. Maybe they are going to add Cindy and T'Pol as regulars?
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    LOL, nice post Bull!

    As far as Aquawomen, I'm pretty sure I remember they took most if not all their guns a while ago. So really all they stand to gain is some stinky fish and maybe a few slightly decent fighters. I really don't see how that will turn the tide. Maybe if they add T'Pol too? So much effort and screen time put into these plotlines, really feels more and more like a waste of time. Maybe they are going to add Cindy and T'Pol as regulars?
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    rittchard wrote: »
    Maybe they are going to add Cindy and T'Pol as regulars?

    Don't even joke...
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    rittchard wrote: »
    Maybe they are going to add Cindy and T'Pol as regulars?

    Don't even joke...

    lol not really joking. After all the time they (writers, producers and characters) spent with both groups, you'd think there was something they intended to reap from it. I guess they did get the guns from Aquawomen, but if that's all it was for, they could just as well not mentioned them again. Trash People looks to be a total, complete net waste of time, except for people who enjoy seeing Rick shirtless. All that's left to get out of that is killing off Simon, which would be pretty lame. That leaves the surviving actors...

    ...unless the new producing team decided to cut their losses and dump all the extraneous trash, pun intended.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    Both she and Simon got signed as regulars this season, for whatever that's worth (Enid is one, too).

    Maybe if she keeps going with the full sentence thing, I won't hate her as much, but, honestly, the Trash Tribe felt like a waste of time even before they were all ground up.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I thought last night was fairly excellent. I loved Rick's sudden discovery and pounce and the car chase and the whole goddamned building thing. Seriously fun, even if the specifics of the location didn't quite work (I mean, they can call out to each other in a basement for twenty minutes and not be able to find each other?). Of course, we knew it wasn't going to end for either of them, but there were a couple of moments where I was willing to believe it might happen anyway.

    More importantly, though, it gave GTA Trevor and Cosplay Darryl the opportunity to play out a deliciously slow mutiny. And I loved how Simon just double secret mutinied at the end. We know that Simon's plan was to leave Rick & Co alone and find other communities because that's what he told Negan, too, and maybe he was holding onto that when he talked it over with Dwight, but I think maybe his heroic slaughtering of the awful, awful trash talkers got in his blood a little, and he liked it.

    We didn't talk about last week's ep, but I had the same problem with it that I did this one, which is the whole dipping-the-weapon-in-walker-guts plan. Surely, in the extensive time that this apocalypse has been going on, someone, somewhere along the way had an infected weapon scrape them, or walked into a bit of metal that a shambler also tore some flesh on, or had some headshot juice fly into their eye. I mean, if this suddenly works, that's going to feel really stupid to me.

    I also like how the Church of Carl is coming along, but I hope it doesn't get too prosthelytizey. However, the message is a very important one and the heart of the show, so I'm okay with Carl as the martyr.

    Especially if it means we get Catherine Durant from House of Cards to teach the lesson that it's not only okay to trust, but important to achieve the final goal of rebuilding society. I couldn't love that actress more, and she really came in and made what could have been a hippy-dippy, flighty character into its own thing, and the result was amazing, IMO. She says it may be awhile before she comes back, but I hope it's not too long. Not that they should overuse her, though. It wasn't just her deus ex machina food delivery or the good lighting that made her seem holy. Thematically, it's like God has come down from on high to point out that the Church of Carl is the right path. However, if they overdo that shit...ugh.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Bullwinkle wrote: »
    We didn't talk about last week's ep, but I had the same problem with it that I did this one, which is the whole dipping-the-weapon-in-walker-guts plan. Surely, in the extensive time that this apocalypse has been going on, someone, somewhere along the way had an infected weapon scrape them, or walked into a bit of metal that a shambler also tore some flesh on, or had some headshot juice fly into their eye. I mean, if this suddenly works, that's going to feel really stupid to me.

    Regarding the above, I think Negan just intended it as a fear tactic. They already acknowledged that it affected people differently, and that some people just didn't get affected at all. Not to mention how many times people have purposely put guts on them, or blood directly on their face, etc. So yeah, there's no way they are going to be able to pull off a direct win with this strategy. At best they can argue all the guts and blood will contaminate food and water and maybe get a couple people ill. Seems like all you'd have to do is get a tent or tarp or move back far enough and it would be worthless lol.

    Overall I really enjoyed last night's ep; the Rick/Negan fight with burning Lucille was fantastic and it was fun to see Rick go crazy again. One nitpick though: I watched it twice and did not see an actual car crash, it's like they chopped a scene out. After Rick clips him, they both continue driving. They cut away but when they cut back both of them have already crashed. Not a big deal, just thought it odd.

    I thought the Martha Stewart interlude was a bit bizarre and contrived to be happening right now, but I like how it drove the plotlines between the ladies. Particularly the effect on Maggie was excellent; these are the big decisions that will make or break her character. It's fun to see Michonne as the voice of reason/Carl, and definitely gives his death a greater weight than pretty much any other before him. I'm not sure what to make of her, and I kind of feel like they already did something similar with the lady who ran Alexandria.

    Loved the "surprise" at the end too - I kept expecting T'Pol to show up some time, but I gave up somewhere along the way, so I was completely caught off guard. Road trip!!!
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I noticed the lack of a car crash, too. AMC execs are cheap ass bastards. Still, they could have serviced it with a big sound effect over a fade to black, I think.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    Interesting episode, a lot of important plot elements happened, but a lot of it was annoying or non-sensical. In addition, I felt like there were some confusing elements (maybe even an editing error?) that made it not work for me.

    The Henry plotline is grating and annoying me. The little boy is really cute so normally I'd give it some leeway, but they are quickly turning him into an irritating plot device. I don't know if it was supposed to be some sort of comment on gun control, but seriously who leaves an assault rifle randomly on the floor?

    The zombie attack could have been a pretty fantastic twist, but instead it was just a complete miss for me. The main turn made sense and they showed the timeline between his death and zombification. But the way it played out with so many surprise zombies made it completely ridiculous, especially given how loud they are. And then all the non-stars just seem to sleep through freaking everything lol and after all this time can't handle a single zombie? Ugh. At most I would have bought 2 or 3 additional zombies after the first one, but instead they were everywhere. Unless the idea was that they were all spread out around the area and all somehow turned at the same time... no matter how you slice it, it was just poorly executed. Which is a shame because I like the idea that they purposely infected their weapons experimentally and it happened to work on some people. Of course it probably didn't work on Notcop, sadly. Speaking of which that was totally confusing for me - I guess Dwight shot her on purpose to keep Simon from killing her? I was confused by that and the ensuing argument she had with Daryl. Equally confusing I could swear they edited Henry leaving with the gun, then you see Carol marching him back inside while others are talking, but then suddenly he's out in the yard with the gun again???

    All in all I felt like what should have been an awesome pivotal episode got mangled by poor execution. YMMV.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    I thought the assault rifle was in a box or chest that he opened. I also thought the moment with Gregory felt a little heavy-handed, but I'm pretty sure they film these things enough in advance that Parkland hadn't even happened yet, so it may just be the new glasses we're seeing it through. None the less, I agree that the kid opening the gate felt a little plot-devicey, and I'm not really enjoying watching his whole arc play out. Plus, he walks in all "Which one of you killed my brother" when every person in there wouldn't have the first idea who this damned kid or his brother was to begin with. Ugh to that kid.

    There were definitely more zombies than just guy-I-never-remember-who-oh, yeah-had-a-thing-with-Carol-a-million-years-ago-where-they-smoked-together-or-something. A bunch of people got stabbed in that how-has-this-not-happened-before-now plan that I was complaining about just 4 messages above this and, according to Darryl, many of them turned. The reason it couldn't be just one or two zombies is that this was a Big Moment in the war with the Saviors.

    It was dumb watching all of the redshirts sleeping while a smallish horde spilled in around them, but to me, the bigger irritant is the fact that this stabby-with-guts plan worked in the first place. I mean, if this was month one, okay. But this far into this shit and someone just stumbles on the idea that this Walker infection might be contagious (even though, as Rick learned at the CDC, we all have it anyway)?

    I think it didn't work on Notcop because Cosplay Darryl didn't dip his arrows. His plan was as you said. The moment was a little confusing, but I think that was by design. That said, I don't know that it was the best choice.

    I didn't catch the bit with the gun, but I do seem to remember that the gun got away from the kid, so if he was holding it at the end, that was sloppy.

    Despite the grumblings, I still liked the episode, though I certainly wouldn't call it their best by a long shot.
  • rittchard
    rittchard
    GT Member
    I was actually OK with the infection part of the plan, since I saw it like coating with poison. I can accept that being cut with a poisoned knife/arrow directly has a much more infectious percentage chance than simply getting (or even rubbing) some blood/guts on you. To me it's the whole thing of the stuff entering your bloodstream. So that's consistent with the show's policy that anyone who gets bit, and doesn't remove the infected part immediately, dies.

    Still it was confusing for me at first because Eugene's original suggestion was to bombard them with guts, which was what I thought the plan was supposed to be. Although you do see Negan dipping Lucille into the guts too. Maybe I misled myself though. I guess Simon upped the ante on the plan when he decided he wanted to kill everyone.

    It was definitely an exciting episode in that stuff kept happening, and the defense of the town was a pretty big showcase. I just wish they would have tightened up the script/editing a little more.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    Eugene's suggestion is what sparked Negan's plan in that "You beautiful idiot" trope that I can't believe they used. However, the fact that no one, in the history of this apocalypse, has scratched themselves on a machete that had zombie guts on it, or ripped their leg on a bit of zombie-infused barbed wire, or just gotten a bit of exploding zombie gut in their eye before this is just asinine. I understand the concept that the zombie infection might spread if it got into your bloodstream, I'm just saying that here we are, surely two years into this thing, and it hasn't happened once before now? Come on.
  • Bullwinkle
    Bullwinkle
    GT Member
    You know, the more I think about this episode, the madder it makes me. TWD has been up and down its whole run, and I guess they've had more down than up in recent years, but if they hadn't just had a couple of good episodes in a row, this one might have made me stop watching.

    It mostly boils down to two things. The stair fall into the sleep pile and the goddamned kid and the fence.

    The zombies come spilling into the, for some inexplicable reason, unguarded house, unseen and unheard. You'd think every single person in this apocalypse would have turned into light enough sleepers by now that even a whispered, "Uhhhhr-raaaah" would sit them bolt upright in bed er, floor. But not only doesn't the shuffle-shuffle of little feet wake them, but a zombie tripping and falling down an entire flight of stairs that they are all sleeping right next to has no affect. Those redshirts deserved to die.

    And then, look, I've known pre-teens. I get that they can say and do stupid things. But I don't think there's a single one I have ever met that wouldn't know that bullets would make it through a chicken wire fence or that opening the door that's holding all of the bad guys inside is the exact thing not to do. The plan of "I'll just ask one of them to get murdered," while stupid, seems on par with a kid's thinking, but the rest of it is just plot devicing. But at least now Maggie knows that Captain Posey-Brow with the Chin Beard is on their side.

    Side Bar: I really kind of hate Captain Posey-Brow. He's just cheesy, with his hair and his stupid not-beard and his put-on gruff voice. Plus, it suddenly dawned on me in this episode that the writers are trying to get us to ship him with Maggie (and I can't believe my own teen has infected me enough to use "ship"). If that happens, fuck that guy. Not his fault, but no.

    Anyway, add to this that I think Negan's plan highlights the shallowness of this show, the fact that I had to remind myself who Tobin was and then was asked to give a dramatic shit about his turning, the stupid flip-flopping of Darryl and NotCop (seriously, weren't they both arguing the exact opposite side last week?), the medical lady giving Siddiq shit for only having some skills and wanting to help, and Simon's cunning plan to whistle at the dark building that all of the armed enemy had just run into, and this episode may be a turning point for me.
  • uxFOOL
    uxFOOL
    GT Manager
    Finally caught up on recorded episodes last night.

    The whole "zombie guts as a weapon" thing is ridiculous for two reasons

    1. Several times people on the show have disguised themselves and been able to walk among the zombies by covering themselves with zombie viscera. I guess we're supposed to believe that at no point during those instances did they have any kind of cut, scrape, sore, or any sort of opening in their skin at all. Dumb.
    2. Not mention the fact that it was determined early on ~with Shane's death, no less~ that EVERYBODY already has whatever turns them into zombies inside of them.

    Now, I understand that this plot element is very loosely adapted from the comic, but the fact that #2 isn't a fact in the comic seems to have escaped the showrunners at this point.

    My interest in the show is hanging by a thread at this point. One more stinker episode or lame plot twist and I'm finally out.

    Mike Dunn
    Executive Producer & Editor-at-Large
    GAMING TREND

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